Success Starts With a Code: Mac Attram’s Advice for Building Strong Virtual Teams

Atiba de Souza: Hey, everybody! Welcome to another wonderful episode of the Build Your Team show. Today, my guest is making me hop all the way over the pond to London, but that's one of the beauties, right? And especially if you're building virtual team, you know this already. That's one of the beauties of technology is, there is no hopping all the way over the pond anymore. We're all right here, right together.

And as always, Build Your Team is brought to you by Client Attraction Pros. Hey, it's time that you become the thought leader of your industry, and we're gonna help you do that and make it fast, easy, and fun.

Atiba de Souza: Mac Attram, thank you for being here. Thanks for coming in and sharing some knowledge with us today about your journey as you have built a fantastic team for your organization. Welcome, brother!

Mac Attram: Well, thank you for having me as the host. I mean, thank you very much for inviting me. USA and UK meet here. Here we go.

Atiba de Souza: Yes. Yes, indeed. So first and foremost, we've known each other for a few months and it's interesting cause in the pre-show we were talking and it feels like it was just yesterday that we actually met and were talking and I had to realize, just now it hit me, that we actually met when I was on my way back, just after I was on my way back from Germany last year. So it's actually been like almost four or five months now.

Mac Attram: Wow. That's a long time. 

Atiba de Souza: But time does fly when you're having fun.

Mac Attram: Wow.

Atiba de Souza: Right?

Mac Attram: It's been a while.

Atiba de Souza: Yes. So Mac, I wanna take you back. I wanna take you back for a moment. Because you've been in business for a while. And I wanna take you back to that moment in time in your history where you realized, "Man, I gotta hire someone."

Like, "It's time for me to hire someone." And I want you to take us back there. And, what were you going through? What were you thinking? What were you feeling? And, what did you do?

Mac Attram: Wow. Well, great question there, Atiba. So let me give you a scenario before I started hiring someone. Now, here's a scenario. I started a small little computer company. We did computer installations. It was me working alone. It was one stop shop, internet design, computer installations. Well, computer installations came later on, but what happened was, I was getting clients to do their websites, internet sites, all this kind of stuff. And then I came across to a gentleman who said, "Hey Mac, I love what you're doing. I love what you stand for. I'd love to come and do sales and marketing for you. I've got sales and marketing experience in this and this."

I'm thinking, "Wow, fantastic!" Someone could do that. I can continue building a business. So, he came on board and a few months later, he brought his buddy along with him, who is a computer networking specialist. I thought, "Oh, excellent." 

Because as I go and see clients and they say they want website design, also they'll say, "Hey, Mac, can you look at this? Computer's not working."

And suddenly I could say, "Hey, I have someone who could do that." Yeah. So we became a one stop thing. Now, cut a long story short, just a couple of years down the line. Yeah, just under a couple years, sales and marketing guy says, "I don't wanna do this anymore and I'm gonna do something else."

Okay, okay. So he goes. And now, I've taken over that role, right? And trying to run the business and operations and then less than a month, the computer guy, Tony, says, "I'm going", and he goes. Sorry. I made a mistake. He doesn't say anything. He just disappears.

Atiba de Souza: Just goes. Just goes.

Mac Attram: He just disappears. I'm going to his house. I'm ringing the bell. He's not answering. I'm thinking what's happened. I'm phoning him. Nothing. And what's happened here? Now, I've gone from working sensible hours and now working 90 hours a week, a hundred hours a week, and I'm working hard. And Atiba, my wife at the time was pregnant with our second child.

And now I'm hardly at home. I've been an entrepreneur for two decades. This was two decades ago. And now I'm hardly at home and one evening driving home from the office. I stopped at this shopping retail carpark and I sat there with my hands in the wheel, just having this breakdown. Having this breakdown thing, "What's happened?" Now, what I didn't tell you is between the two of them, they're colluded in terms of inventory and stock. Now I'm find myself over $100,000 in personal debt that I had to pay. I had to raise money on credit cards, got loans to make sure these creditors were off my back and business can continue. But they left me in a hole. Now I'm falling into this kind of depression. Anyway, sitting there in this car park thinking, " I'm such a failure. What happened?" Now, in that moment, I realized I've got to do — I've gotta understand how successful business owners do business. How do they become wealthy? How do they become successful? And it dawned me, I've got to go and learn this.

So I went on the mission of self-discovery, reading books, taking action. Luckily enough, I was able to fix my business. Now by fixing my business, I realized how I needed to do it. So with these guys gone, I now had to hire, get my first hire. I had to get someone in thinking, "I can't do this all alone." I'm working too many hours.

My wife's not seeing me. I'm not seeing much of our first child. And so now, I'm in a place where I don't trust people. Either I do the long hours and do it myself or get some help. One of my teachers was a person called Blair Singer. He wrote a book called Team Code of Honor. And when I read that book, I realized how much I didn't know. And Team Code of Honor, when you read it, it talks about creating a code of honor whenever you are in a team, with people or working with other people. And so with my first hire when I created this code, it's the code of honors, just a list of rules that govern the behaviors of individuals on a team. Right.

This is how we're gonna behave. We're gonna turn up on time. This is how we treat each other. This is how we do things. And so my first hire, that's what I had to do. It's like, "Do you agree to this set of codes?" And I didn't have that the first time working with these other people. So it was a mess at the beginning until I learned something in order for any new hires come on board. We working as a unit, not separate.

Atiba de Souza: Well, one, I'm glad you didn't quit. I know that feeling of despair. I've been there with my hands in the head in a car park, as y'all on that side of the pond.

 I've been there, so I totally can relate. Maybe you're listening to us right now and you're close to that or maybe there is in your future, which I hope it's not. But the thing that I want you really quickly, and I want to touch on this, that Mac just said that's so very important was, he realized that, "Yes, I made a mistake. Yes, I didn't do this right, but there is a way to do this right and I can go figure that out." So kudos to you. Kudos to you on that, man. 

Mac Attram: Thank you.

Atiba de Souza: That is awesome because so many people quit in that moment.

Mac Attram: Yeah, I was close to that.

Atiba de Souza: And it's okay to be close. Just don't do it, right? We learn and we grow. I love the code of ethics, right? I absolutely love that concept of the code of ethics. And so let's delve into that a little bit.

Is this something that, number one, you give someone on day one? Do you talk about it in the job interview?

Mac Attram: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, you hear a lot of terminology around code and some companies will say code of conduct, some say code of ethics, but this is specifically, the terminology is code of honor. The code of honor is that I value you enough on this team that I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna show up on time. I'm not gonna be behaving this other way cuz the rules are there. And you see, in any organization, in any team, everyone comes with their own set of values, right? In my training programs, I give people an example. I say, "Hey, write down your highest values. What's most important to you?"

People write, yeah, honesty, wealth, money, family, fun, whatever. And then I pick two people randomly and I say, "Hey, shout out your five, and you shout out your five. And let's see how many are actually the same."

Atiba de Souza: Actually the same.

Mac Attram: Now, you'll be very lucky to get five the same. So that means we all have our own personal values.

Someone might respect money. Someone may think family's more important. Nothing wrong with that. But what the code of honor does is, once it's created, it's shared values, it means this company, this business, this is what we stand for, right? And it's simple things like on ours, for example, I don't like lateness. I know you are probably the same, right? 

So we have a code. It says, "Always be on time by being early." That means, early with the reports, early when you're meeting someone, whatever. We have other one, 'Never abandon a teammate in need." If you're working together and someone needs help and it's 6:00 PM you've gotta go to help them out because at some point you may need help. The code of honor is, it's an honor principle that I honor you, honor this business and I'll do the right thing, not because someone has a stick, and it may not be pay me. It's because I feel it's the right thing to do. I have a whole training on this because it saved my business. It actually saved my life.

Atiba de Souza: That's phenomenal. Thank you first for — it was funny, I have code of honor written down and I said code of ethics. But it's so important that the distinction that you made there, right? So one, thank you for doing that. Two, let me ask this question. So you share your code of honor upfront, people get it, so on and so forth. Do you have to police it?

Mac Attram: Right. Good question. I actually didn't finish your last question and the answer is yes. At an interview stage, I actually bring this out and say, "Hey, this is what we stand for. Are you willing to agree with it? If you are, come on board. If you are not, hey, I understand. Maybe something else suits you."

Why? Because I've worked with people who in the past, like my two business partners where I didn't have this, and in the absence of rules, what happens, Atiba? There's chaos and the worst thing is people make up their own rules.

Atiba de Souza: Yeah.

Mac Attram: They make up their own rules. So, in answer to your question is yes, you police it. First of all, if someone's behaves badly in the organization and you have no reference point as to actually that behavior is wrong, then how can you call it out? So, what I say to business owners, CEOs, create it, create it with your senior team, and once it's created, train the people as to what it is and why it's important to agree to it. And then yes, you say police it, but I know what you mean.

Atiba de Souza: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mac Attram: Yeah, but I know exactly, how'd you enforce that? How'd you enforce that? Remember, it's a principle of honor. So the way you enforce it is, you train your people to say, "Hey, if you notice someone break it, or you notice me as the CEO break it, feel free to call me out on it." And I give people trainings in terms of how to call people out elegantly. So the hardest thing that any of your staff would do is to be able to call another peer. A peer to peer out. It's very difficult. So you have to train them to do that elegantly in terms of, "Hey, I'm actually trying to support you in order to support the company", and there's this process I'll go through to show them out.

So how you enforce it is, if people are not — I'll give you an example. Someone who became a client and we are having this conversation about he's saying, his team's not working, the culture is not right, people are doing what they're like. I said, "Do you have a code of honor?" He said, "Yes, we have that."

I said, "Tell me about it." "Well, some rules. It's on our wall." I said, "Okay. "And I said, "When was the last time you noticed someone calling someone else out on their behavior?" He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "If nobody's calling anyone out, you don't have a code of honor. You just have a list that people — 

Atiba de Souza: May not follow.

Mac Attram: Right. So the Code of honor only exists when people are actively calling people out in a supportive way in order to support the business and there's a way of doing it elegantly.

Atiba de Souza: So that was exactly why I used the term policing, because for most business owners, you think of it like, "Okay, this is something that I've gotta enforce and police and be on top of and be over." But the truth of the matter is exactly what you just said. It's the exact opposite.

Mac Attram: Right. Right.

Atiba de Souza: It's the exact opposite. It needs to be something that is self-governing.

Mac Attram: You got it.

Atiba de Souza: And peer-governed.

Mac Attram: You got it.

Atiba de Souza: Not policed because if it's policed, it's not true culture.

Mac Attram: Absolutely. Absolutely. You hit the nail right on the head, Atiba. So much so some of my clients say to me, "Mac, you know what, this is the very first year I've been able to go away for three weeks, without people calling me on my phone, disturbing my vacation, because it's exactly what you said, Atiba. It's peer-to-peer governed. It's not top-down. It's like everybody.

Atiba de Souza: Yes, yes. So we're gonna stay here with the code of honor because I think it's awesome. And I wanna go back in the process and look at the hiring process, right? And you say, so you talk about it in the interview, but specifically, is it included at all in the job descriptions that you write?

And two, in the interview, whether this is in person or virtual — I would love for you to tell me how you do this differently in different environments — is this just a piece of paper that you just hand them and say, "Hey, read this", and say, "Yes or no". Like, the standard of checkbox on a form that I agree, or how do you present this to them?

Mac Attram: Okay, great question. So there's two or three parts to that. So the first part is at interview. So if I'm interviewing, Atiba, and I'm having to inkling that, "Hey, Atiba might be the person for this role actually." And I will go as far as making sure I've done everything else. And one of the key things towards the end would be, "By the way, Atiba, we have a set of rules, we call it the code of honor in our organization. It really helps with our culture and it helps the team work very, very well together. I'm gonna show you what it looks like. It's here on this piece of paper. I just want you to read it. Is there anything that stands out to you that you cannot follow or you cannot abide by? Just let me know."

And I just hand over to them. They take a few minutes and most people say, "It's fine. Yeah, no problem." So then the second part is this — and interviewees people will say whatever they like, right? We know the reality when they start work. So now, when they start work as part of their contract of employment, which is what we call it here, we also send them the code of honor to sign.

So they have to return the contract of employment as well as the code of honor signed as well. So we've got two documents. We have a reference point in terms of if they break it, they know it. And there's another level as well. We have some organizations, some of our clients, at every single meeting, they read out the code of honor.

Atiba de Souza: Wow.

Mac Attram: They read it out to ingrain the fact that, "Hey, this is what we stand for. This is what we live by." I always say to people, don't make it an onerous long list. You just want 5 to 10 key rules, 5 to 10 key rules. That is it. That everybody can understand.

Atiba de Souza: Yeah, I'm glad you said that cause that's exactly where I was going next, like is this the scrolls that come out and people standing there and just, you know, the shall die and 10 minutes later they're done. But you said it there, 5 to 10 key rules. How do you define them? How do you as a business owner choose what should go on there?

Mac Attram: Good question. Great, great question. Great question. I'm speaking to a business owner and they say, "Yes, I do need this kind of thing." There's two scenarios. Actually, lemme tell you a story. Let me tell you a story, right? Many years ago when I started training and coaching, like 17 years, I've trained hundreds of thousands of people in over 50 countries on business, wealth creation, personal development.

And I remember someone, a director of a company, the CEO actually saw me. He came and spoke to me afterwards, after I got off stage and he said, "We are having some challenges in our business." The three directors can't agree on stuff, and our team seems to be in chaos. Can you come in and help us?"

So I went to see them — this is in London — to their boardroom. And in their boardroom, I said, "Look, I'm here to see how I can support, okay? You've hired me. So all I wanna know right now is, I want to hear all the behaviors that you see in your company. Good and bad. But a key principle is, key thing is, I don't want you to mention any names."

Atiba de Souza: Okay.

Mac Attram: Could you imagine three directors not getting along and if they mention each other's names, it comes crazy, right? That's not a point of the exercise. But they started telling me all these things and I said, "Okay, now I know all the good behaviors. I know bad behaviors. What we want to do is now create a list of rules that everybody can live by." So with those three directors, I help them to create there and and then. What I say to other people is, if you have a small team and you don't have any kind of leadership team, then you can create it based on your own values and then share it out.

So for example, someone can come into your organization, where there are no rules and they might think that it's okay to swear at clients and swear and curse, right? And in their world, in the organizations they worked with, those values may have been okay, but in my organization we don't have that, right?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. One of the rules maybe, we are kind, courteous and honest in all our transactions with clients and supplies and staff, whatever the code is. So you can create it based on your own values and then share it out so everyone then abides by it, signs it or you can bring a small collective together, depending on how big your organization is, just maybe just bring the leaders together to create it and then train it out into the various departments.

Atiba de Souza: That's great. That's great. So you've created this list. Let's say there's seven items on the list.

Mac Attram: Yeah.

Atiba de Souza: And that list was great today, right? Because it's you and three other people. There is no one to bring in. It's just, like you said, based on your values and you created that list today. And these are the code of ethics. And three years from now, the companies seven times the size. Is there ever room for changing the code of ethics or once you do it, it's set and stuck?

Mac Attram: Oh, no. It can be updated. Remember, things change. What you notice in behavior today may be apt, but a year from now you may think, "Oh, I've just been noticing something. People are behaving this way. I don't think this is part of our company code." So you can revise that code of honor and renew it and reissue it out.

And your example, three years from now, the company's seven times bigger, right? And so, for some organizations, they have the same code of honor revised to fit that team, that culture, and departments actually create their own code of honor, for sales, for marketing, for customer service.

So that leader is actually leading that team. And based on the code, they've created that specific to that department.

Atiba de Souza: Yeah, that's great too. That's a really great way of looking at it as well, because you're right, there may be different rules that the salespeople follow that somebody in production or client services, it follows. I can completely see that. That's a really valid point, really great point there.

Mac Attram: In my companies, I have several companies and actually I was doing a three day bootcamp, we just finished yesterday. Someone asked that question cause I was teaching part of the code of honor as well, and they said, "Mac, in your company, do you have the same code of honor across all your companies?" I said, "No." Every company is slightly different.

I have my company with their leaders. And so, it's a case of really adapting or creating for that particular culture, that company and what we're doing. My real estate company is different from my marketing company is different from my education company. They are different people.

Atiba de Souza: Which absolutely makes sense, which absolutely makes sense. So one last question here on code of honor. And again, I think this is genius and I think this is wonderful and I'm glad that you teach on this. And if you're listening, I gonna tell you in a little while how you get in touch with him if you need to learn this for your organization, because obviously we're just kind of scratching the surface here, right?

And I'll tell you why I love this so much too. Just really aside, one of the things we talk about a lot here on this channel is hiring for fit. It's more important to hire for fit than it is for skill.

Mac Attram: Right.

Atiba de Souza: Because if they've got the great skill, but they come in and they cuss like a sailor and you got a no cussing environment, it doesn't matter how good they are.

Mac Attram: Absolutely. So you're talking about fit, you're talking about attitude?

Atiba de Souza: Well, yeah. So fit is a broad term for attitude and culture and what is the environment that we create here? They've gotta fit into this environment.

Mac Attram: Absolutely.

Atiba de Souza: Right? And code of honor is part of that. You can't agree to our code of honor, then you can't fit in our environment.

Mac Attram: There you go. You got it. It's as simple as that. It's simple as that.

Atiba de Souza: It's as simple as that. But now I wanna give you a bit of a scenario. Based on something that you were saying just now, as the organization grows, you may start to see behaviors that you're like, "Ooh." And it may cause you to percolate on doing an update, a revision to the code of honor.

Now, let's say you do that code of honor, have you ever seen or experienced where the new code of honor comes out and people feel personally attacked? 

Mac Attram: Yeah, good question. Good question. I haven't seen that to answer your question, but the only time when people feel personally attacked is, that I've seen, is where the person issuing the code of honor or talking about a code of honor has done it badly. In other words, has not set the right context as to why we are doing this, why it's important, and what difference is it gonna make to this organization. So suddenly, it's been done badly. Imagine, Atiba, all I said was, "This code of honor, here it is, you've agreed to it. If anyone breaks it, make sure you call 'em out on it." But you haven't trained people on how to call it out.

And someone, your peer is now saying, "Hey, Atiba, we were having a meeting Monday morning. I noticed you were late. Why were you late again? You was late last week." Now, I feel victimized. I feel like, "Who are you? You're not my boss. You're not a boss of me, as they say."

But watch this, if you've trained it correctly the way I teach you to train it, that person you are speaking to, that person calling it out, feels empowered, the way I train it is that by time you've finished, that person feels like you are supporting them, not victimizing them.

There's a process of doing that. If you don't issue this properly, don't do it properly, you actually disturb your culture, you don't make it better cuz the toughest thing for any peer to do is to call someone else out.

Atiba de Souza: Yeah. So number one, I love the answer. And I asked you that question in that way because I know business owners, like, you know business owners, and I know you've probably experienced this too, business owners, when we hear something new like this, often we may say, "That is good for them or I really like that, but I don't see how I could ever get there because X, Y, Z", and then they start to list all the problems. And so I asked you that question because I knew it was — Hey, listen, y'all listening to us, I know there's some of those things that y'all are thinking, right? And I wanted you to hear from Mac, who's an expert here.

I'm wondering to hear from Mac that there's not a problem in changing the culture. There's a problem when you don't introduce it well into your culture. So problems come up and y'all hear me say this all the time, it's your fault.

Mac Attram: Yeah.

Atiba de Souza: Right? But that's good news because it's your fault, means it's also something that somebody like Mac can help teach you so that you can be better and have the success that you need to have, right? So Mac, I think this is a perfect time. We've talked all about a lot of your —

Mac Attram: Before you go to that, when you're speaking, it just remind me of something. I've been studying martial arts for nearly 40 years. My grandmaster when I was train with him, often, he will say, "It's not the student's fault, it's the instructor. It's the instructor."

And I agree with you, by the way, it's not the team member's fault or it is the fault of the CEO, the leader to address it and do it the right way. So I love that. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt you. I just wanted to say that.

Atiba de Souza: No, it is. To even take it further and bring it back to the point that you were making as well. I forget who said this, but it came out of GE in the mid eighties with Jack Welch, and studying Six Sigma and all of that type of stuff that — what is it? 98% of workplace failures are due to poor systems, not poor people.

Mac Attram: Right.

Atiba de Souza: And so, when we sit here and we say it's the instructor, it's because what we're really saying is, you as the instructor, didn't create the right system and follow the system that you put in place that then put the employee in a bad place where they did the wrong thing. That's why it's your fault. 

Mac Attram: That's it. That's it. That's what Grandmaster Trevor Nicholls says, my instructor.

Atiba de Souza: Yes. I'm gonna take an aside there cuz I did forget to bring this up earlier. You are — not just you, like your whole family. So tell us about that piece of your life because I find it super fascinating. Someone who did Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, 40 years ago. Tell us about the martial arts side of your life.

Mac Attram: Martial arts is something that's been with me since I was a child. I was always a small kid. So as a small kid at school, I got picked on, I got bullied in London. Actually, being in South London, being the color I am, young people would chase you and beat you down.

So I took up martial arts to defend myself. That's what I did and I studied it for most of my life. And funnily enough, because I've been doing it so long, my kids wanted to jump in. I didn't push them, but they started studying and my wife as well. Right after the kids have grown, she wanted to jump in, but they are all black belts right now.

They're all black belts. They train and some are former UK national champions. And so I'm very proud of them. It's one of those things we all have in common. We all practice this martial arts, TaeKwonDo, specifically.

Atiba de Souza: That's absolutely amazing. It also means, if you run into Mac or any of his family members, just say yes, right? They're all black belts. 

Mac Attram: Well, it's a good discipline, right?

Atiba de Souza: The funny thing about my years, and I've been saying that I want to get back to martial arts for a while, and I just don't have any good dojos around me and the traffic around here is horrible. It'll take me an hour to get to a good dojo. And so that's like, who has time, right? And that's been my challenge here where I live currently. But you're right, the disciplines that I learned all those years, 30 years ago, I still use today. Even though it's a physical thing, it's more mental than it is physical.

Mac Attram: Absolutely, yes. It is.

Atiba de Souza: It's still with me today. So I know this is the Build Your Team show, but we just turned it into a little bit of a plug for some sort of martial arts in your area as well. And yes, y'all can hold me accountable. I need to find a dojo and I need to get back into martial arts myself. I've been saying it for far too long.

Mac Attram: It'll make you a better leader as well, right?

Atiba de Souza: It does well. And the thing there is, because you learn to be a better follower.

Mac Attram: Yeah. Humility, character building, absolutely. So it does force you to become a better listener, and get ready to hit the mat every day. Get into your business. It's a new day. Let's go again. Let's go again. Chin up, fall down 10 times, pick yourself up. Let's go.

Atiba de Souza: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And you can hold me accountable — I'm gonna find a studio. I mean, a dojo. I gotta find one. 

Mac Attram: Yeah, I know what you mean. Go for it.. I'll trace you one there.

Atiba de Souza: Yes. But listen, tell everybody, because we've been talking about a lot of this code of honor stuff today, which is really great the way we've unpacked it and looked at it from a bunch of different angles.

And there've been a few times in there where you said, "I do this in my multiple companies", and there've been even more times when you said, "And we teach our clients how to do this and how to implement this and how to make sure it's right in their company." And I know that's only one of many things that you have taught to the thousands of people that you have taught in the last two decades and so tell people.

Mac Attram: Sure, yeah. I run business boot camps and I have business academies for those who want to — small business owners specifically who want to grow or scale their business. And we have a system where we call it the business wealth system. So you can do an assessment. With the assessment, you'll know whether your key area that you need to fix is either marketing, sales, your leadership, finance, whatever it is. And so once that assessment is done, you'll know exactly what help — so we've got coaches around the world who work with our clients to improve in a specific area they want to improve in.

And so the easiest way to get hold of me or check me out is go to www.macattram.com. That's my full name, no spaces, macattram.com. Reach out to me there. Some free resources there. Free business quiz there as well. Check it out.

Atiba de Souza: Awesome! 

Mac Attram: Yeah, you check it out. It'll give you a report as well where your —

Atiba de Souza: Where you are. 

Mac Attram: — business maybe lacking, where you are right now?

Atiba de Souza: That's absolutely wonderful. So macattram.com. Y'all heard it. It will be in the description as well. Click that link and here's reality, if you've never heard of the code of honor before, if you've never thought about that before, and this opened your eyes even just a little bit, please understand, all we've done is touch one of many of the things that Mac can bring to you and your organization to help you grow. And you just heard, even though he might be over the pond, they help people all over the world because in this virtual environment, there is no pond.

Mac Attram: Yeah. There you go.

Atiba de Souza: Right? Mac, brother, thank you so much for being here. It's been such a pleasure. I loved this conversation on code of honor. So freaking awesome! Thank you so much, my friend.

Mac Attram: Well, you're most welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I really appreciate it, brother.

Atiba de Souza: You're welcome. All right everybody. Bye-Bye.