Do you want to know how to create a good environment at work?
As business owners, running a business is no easy task. But with the right people on your team, you can make it happen.
And one of the most important aspects of starting a company is making sure you have the right team. But if you're just getting started, how do you know who the right people are?
It's a huge challenge for new founders—and for experienced ones, too. If you can't find the right person for your team, your startup won't succeed. It's that simple.
But how do you know when someone is "right?" What qualities should they have? What skills should they have? And above all—how do you find them.
Today we're talking about how to create a good environment at work with employees who are as invested in your company's success as you are and how to build a good working relationship with your employees. We have Branden Lisi on the line with us today to share his insights on these topics.
Listen to the Episode
Atiba de Souza: Why won't my staff take ownership? Have you found yourself asking that question? Yeah, most of us as entrepreneurs and business owners, we found ourselves at some point in time asking that question because we've wanted our staff to take ownership of the process, of their job, of their work. And it seemed like they just didn't hear, they just wanted to push a button. They didn't want to take ownership. Well, my guest today on the Build Your Team Show, Branden Lisi, he has uncovered and cracked the code on figuring out which roles in your business you need just a button pusher for, which roles in your business you really need someone to take ownership of and how to distinguish and hire those types of people. Branden's been doing this for over 30 years. So stay tuned because Branden's gonna drop some really, really important gems on us today. And as always, we're brought to you by Client Attraction Pros, helping thought leaders make video marketing fun, easy and painless.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Build Your Team Show. I've got a great guest for you today. Branden Lisi, he's been in business with Object 9 for— what is it? Over 20 years now and he's got some real gems and insights on hiring and managing teams that you are gonna want to hear today. Branden, welcome to the show.
Branden Lisi: Thank you for having me, Atiba.
Atiba de Souza: It's a pleasure. Now, I gotta tell everybody, you know, we had a little pre-show conversation already, and honestly, the pre-show conversation was great. I got a ton of notes from just our pre-show conversation. But, I guess, where I'd like to start with you is give me a little bit of understanding, 'cause there was something that you said pretty sure that I really wanna just jump right in on, which is the purpose of who you hire.
Right? So we were talking about hiring, we're talking about building teams and you've done it now, both for your Object 9 brand and also for, and get this guy's, he also owns candy stores. Right. But you mentioned them that the purpose of who you hire, understanding that purpose. Can you elaborate a little bit on that for us?
Branden Lisi: In a situation where you got an entrepreneur who's about to make a critical hire, and it was sort of presented in the context of early stage entrepreneurs or people still trying to scale their organization. And entrepreneurs kind of buy their makeup, have ownership in what it is that they're doing.
And a lot of times people throw out all these values like accountability and teamwork and all these different words and whatnot. But in sitting around the table with entrepreneurs for like 18 years, I was a member of the entrepreneur's organization. You sit around the table and really when you cut through all of the language, it really comes down to people who are looking for people who take ownership in their responsibility or their role within a company.
And I think a lot of people struggle sometimes when they are evaluating talent. To figure out, well, do I want somebody who's gonna come in and take ownership in this role and allow me to do other things or whatever, and they own it like I own it, or are they hiring somebody based on their resume who might have had responsibility for other things that are like what I want, but they're not quite owners? And you don't have to be a business owner to actually take ownership in something.
And when I'm interviewing people for my candy stores, the one thing I'm looking for in all the interviews, when I go through the phone interviews and narrow it down and whatnot, I'm looking for an example of when somebody took ownership or responsibility, they raised their hand and said, "I wanna make a change, or I wanna make an impact in this company."
And whether they succeeded or failed does not matter to me. I'm just looking for someone who's raised their hand and said, "I want to own this responsibility or this initiative" or something along those lines. And so, I think, that's where a lot of people struggle is they don't take the time to really interview people and dig into, do they have that characteristic of taking ownership of something versus taking responsibility?
And then you contrast that 'cause sometimes you don't always need people to take ownership of that particular role and responsibility. You just need them to implement it really well. And they hire somebody that, you know, wants to take ownership of something. And then you put 'em in this box that you expect them to just, you know, rinse and repeat the results over and over and over again, and just execute.
And they chase and they grow and they push and they try to get outside that boundary because they want to take ownership, and you are not giving them that opportunity. And so I think that, it's sort of, that dynamic of finding people who will take ownership when you need that, versus finding people who will be happy executing within the framework that you've provided, that mistake, and it's the same mistake, just kind of on two sides of the same coin, I think that's the biggest mistake that I see people make over and over and over again.
Atiba de Souza: Wow. So that leads me to a question then, 'cause you define, you know, you need to hire sometimes for ownership and then sometimes you need to hire the person who's just gonna follow the system and do the task. As a business owner, as a small business owner. And maybe you can remember back to maybe possibly even your early days at Object 9, how do you determine which roles require which type of person?
Branden Lisi: I think some of it is— in my business, so on a marketing agency, that's the core business, we've owned it for 30 years. That's really a problem-solving business. Every single client that we work with has some different problem. Right? Sometimes it's self-inflicted problems, sometimes market-inflicted problems, sometimes it's just maturity or whatever, but they all have kind of a unique problem. And when you're hiring problem-solvers and that, you know, whether you're a law firm, an engineering firm, or PR firm or marketing firm, or whatever, communications, you always have to have people who are gonna kind of take ownership of that problem, because everybody's gonna have an unending series of problems and constant work streams that they're trying to solve. And there is no rinse and repeat kind of methodology. And so in that dynamic, you know, inherently our strategy when we finally figured that out, it took us about a dozen of, you know, throwing bodies into the breach, so to speak, not really understanding what we were doing, 'cause we were kind of young and naive about the hiring process.
And when I finally realized I'm looking for people that are taking ownership versus having responsibility, I started hiring better problem-solvers and had a lot more success. And the things I shared with you, you know at the beginning of all of this is, I think the average tenure now across all marketing agencies in the US is about 26 months.
The average tenure in our firm is 10 years. And part of that is, the people that I'm hiring, I'm— you know, I know they want to take ownership of their work. You know, Some of this is cause it's their creativity coming out. So they're putting a little part of themselves into everything that they do, you know, whether it's, you know, an identity or a brand or package or a website or whatever, it's still coming from within them.
And own that sense of responsibility, pride, the project. They kind of need to own it all. And so you're always looking for that kind of personality trait, in that case. You know, when I hire my manager for my Rocket Fizz, I want somebody that's gonna take ownership of that store, but it's a different kind of ownership. In that, it's a system. There's a process. It's pretty, you know, I mean, yeah, you're ordering different product and and you're managing that. You're designing displays and whatnot, and there's a certain framework within creativity, but I'm not trying to transform it into an ice cream store and into this and into that, I mean, parameters are pretty well set.
And so I'm still looking for people that are taking ownership, but I am also looking for someone who's very comfortable working within a certain kind of structure. When I'm hiring staff for that, I want people who are just implementing, right. Just very comfortable taking direction from people and follow the rules, ring up the register, you know, greet the customers, do these things over and over and over again because I'm not looking for innovation and ideation.
I'm looking for just really good flawless implementation around customer service. And you can do certain things your own way, but again, I'm not looking for you to kind of change the business or transform something. I just want you to do it.
And you think about manufacturing clients. Like we— a lot of our clients make stuff.
You're not looking for innovation every single time you make the, you know, the first widget And the hundredth widget need to be the same.
Right. And so the people who are making things. Are going to be a little bit different than the people who are designing the products, right? And so you're gonna need a blend of those kinds of personalities.
And I think it's really critical that people figure out from a hiring perspective and sort of a whole philosophy of how you go about hiring. Are you hiring the right people, not from a skills perspective, 'cause most of those can be taught. Are you hiring 'em from the right mindset perspective of, you know, I wanna be responsible I want to be the owner and they're important, but they're different.
And I think, you know, that kind of gets lost, the two, and there is a very big difference in terms of people being happy and content within their role of being responsible versus being an owner.
Atiba de Souza: That's a really, really great point. And you know, for you guys who are listening, there was a point that Branden made in there. And, you know, sometimes you hear or read things about hiring and you see practices or best practices and you wanna follow this or follow that. Or, and sometimes it's the latest fad, even in hiring and those types of practices.
But I want you to hone in on something that Branden said here, in this process— well, actually there was two things that you said, number one, you realized after 12 years that you needed to hire people who were going to own their process. So guys, he just taught you a lesson that took him 12 years to learn.
So Branden, thank you. You just saved a lot of people 12 years. That's number one. But number two, and this is the— maybe, yes, maybe, if you actually listened and implement correctly, and don't make other mistakes too. But here's the second thing that's so vitally important, and I know this because I'm in this industry with Branden as well.
You said 26 months is the average length of time that someone last in the digital marketing injury, I thought it was less than that, I was surprised at 26 months. But here what he said, his people are with him on average for 10 years guys, 10 years. Okay. That's what? Four and a half times the average.
That's part of the beauty of doing this. Now, Branden, and I know this is where it starts because we're just talking about hiring, right? And making sure you're getting the right people in the door. So, let's shift a little bit and talk about the rest of that time of how they stay for 10 years and some of the cultural side of things that you've built and the things that you've learned over time, that have caused your environment to be so great for people.
Branden Lisi: I think the most fundamental perspective that we brought to being business owners, the idea of the inverted pyramid, right. Instead of us being at the top of the hierarchy, we're at the bottom. A lot of times when I'm talking to people about my Rocket Fizz candy stores, 'cause that's kind of relevant right now, 'cause I'm adding more of them. I describe myself to manager candidates that I talk to it's like, I'm the root ball. Like my job is just to go get all the nutrients and all the resources and everything to help lift you up and make you strong. And I think that servant leadership mentality is the foundational piece of it, of, you know, everybody does it a little bit differently, but in the world of marketing, in particular, when there's creativity at stake and everybody's kind of putting some of their own creativity out there right on every idea that comes out of, somebody's a part of them.
I mean, it's not, you know, it's not something you pull off a shelf, it's gotta come outta your brain, you know, out of your mind and out of your imagination. And I think if, you know, well, some of the people I've seen in my industry, it's kind of about them, right? They think they're the most important person.
And while they're certainly an important person, 'cause they help start the company. To scale an organization, any kind of professional service firm, you're going to have to lift up the people around them and allow them to have the life and give them the opportunity. And I think that the mentality of, you know, our name Object 9 came from, we didn't want to have our names on the door, right.
We didn't want somebody to think, well, why isn't Lisi or Cado, you know, in the product, in the room with me. And I think that's one thing professional service firms, especially law firms really kind of grapple with is they put their names on the door because of tradition, right. Ego. And it's a little bit of both, sometimes one weighted more than other.
But then that diminishes the junior partner or the person, who's not a full partner in the mind of the client. Right. And so we never wanted to do that, but more importantly, I realized. I'm nothing without my people. I mean, I'm not, and I mean, it's a team sport, you're in digital marketing, right?
I mean, I tell people all the time, it, it takes six to eight, depending on the kinds of campaigns you're developing, you need six to eight different skill sets that are not going to be found in inside the bodies of one or two people. Right? You need designers and writers and developers and coders, uh, in terms of MarTech stuff, you need people who can do the analysis.
You could do the paid search spin and how that works. And you need a strategist to understand as to how to pull it all together. And so just right there, there's a handful of talents that you have to have. And if you think you're gonna do it all on your own, then you're gonna do it all on your own.
And you're never gonna be able to grow, you know?
And so, nobody's gonna wanna come work with you. If you are the kind of person that thinks that they're gonna do all on their own, because you're not gonna give up ownership to other people, you know, and it doesn't have to be equity. Not everybody wants equity, not everybody wants the responsibilities of equity and people who think they want the responsibilities of equity, when they're young, kind of dating myself as a mid 50's guy here, they don't understand the responsibilities, they just see the benefits that come with it. But there's liabilities of, you know, having equity and things too. Because when, you know, in end of the day, it's your name on the lease, your name on the paychecks and your name on the lines of credit or whatever it is that you gotta use to fuel the growth of the company.
It's not all I just have, you know, I'm an owner, there's a responsibility that comes with that as well. So I think that's, you know, going back to the dynamic of trying to understand why we've had the success in keeping people is we treat them like we would want to be treated. We lift them up and try to make sure that they have everything that they need to be successful.
If something goes wrong, it's usually our fault as the leaders, not their fault. And we work with people to get them where they need to be in terms of the professional skills. And I think that's another thing we probably failed out a lot when we were younger is we had the tendency— because we could jump in the deep end of the pool and swim, we thought other people could just jump in the deep end and swim too. And not everybody is ready to do that. Some people need to wait into the deep end and build that strength of skill or capability before they're in the deep end and you're pilot on weights. right.
So I think there's a, it speaks a little bit to the culture of not just what you're looking for in people, but how you bring them on board and how you give them responsibility and how you encourage them to take more. And that's something that's different for every company. It's different for every leader, it's different for every employee. And there is no real one way to do it.
That's a bit like alchemy, you get this kind of experiment and figure it out and have the patience to work with people to find out how to build a relationship, 'cause that's at the end of the day, that's really what it's about.
Atiba de Souza: Is this.
Branden Lisi: Building relationships with the people that you work with that are healthy and productive, doesn't mean they're not without conflict.
But they're strong enough to withstand the conflict that's necessary to grow and change and evolve and get through the tough times together.
Atiba de Souza: And there's always conflict in order to grow and change because you can't grow and change without— there has to be destruction in order to be creation. It's just the way it works. Right.
Branden Lisi: And you're going to have conflict with clients. And not bad one, not conflict in the term of, oh, we're at each other's throat. It is just deadlines inherently bring their own conflict, right? Prioritization of tasks and how you get things done and how you help people get through their drama and their stress.
'Cause our business, you know, I don't know about your side of it, but I have yet to find a client that has all the time and all the money and all the resources to do everything that they're expected to do by the people above them, in their organizations who don't understand marketing. And so, you know, they've got just pressure coming down, get money, money, get revenue, get ready, get sales, get, you know, we got whatever it is that they're responsible for in their organization, and nobody really understands marketing, for the most part. And so, or very few, I shouldn't say nobody, I should say very few executives, generally really understand it. they understand making their widget or delivering their service. And that's how they rise up in, in their organization, counting finance, engineering, sales, but marketing is a challenge.
And so, you know, there's a lot of conflict within that organization that you're trying to manage and help them understand, and you're always educating, and if you're doing a good job in marketing, you're always educating people, which is frustrating.
Atiba de Souza: But that's what marketing is though.
Branden Lisi: Yeah, you have conflict, right.
It's just there, the conflict, and I don't understand, that kind of thing, you gotta help people get through the barriers that they have in their own minds and their own experiences to help them advance so they can become better clients.
Atiba de Souza: Yes, absolutely.
Branden Lisi: And better people, you know, happier, more productive people within their own place.
'Cause if you're doing your job right, your clients are actually happier people, just more successful, they're happier. Although that's a hard one to pull off, which is why we did the candy stores, 'cause it's a lot easier to make people happy in a candy store.
Atiba de Souza: It is. Candy does make people happy, there's no doubt about that. But I want to tie the happier people and the process of what it is you're trying to create within Object 9 in terms of what you're delivering to your clients and the growth that you deliver to your clients, not just monetarily, but in life and value back to a term that, I'll be honest with you, I don't hear very often in the marketing circles and you kind of said why, but I want to go back to it and kinda wrap this all in. It was two words that you used "Servant Leader". Servant leader. Talk to me about, and I know what it means, because that's how we run things, and that's how I think.
Right. But tell me, and for everyone else listening from your perspective, what is a servant leader and how does that play into one year management, and then two, how your staff are able to help your customers because of the leadership role that you've already emulated to them.
Branden Lisi: So, helping people is sort of the foundation to me of being a servant leader, not taking advantage of people, not billing people. When you enter into a relationship with a client and that's kind of where we started with this, we'll talk, we'll come back to the employees in a minute. If your attitude is, "I'm gonna get as much money out of this deal as I can", and there's a lot of that in this business. And there are people that are selling crap on the internet. I get solicit all the on LinkedIn. It's like, you know, once people figure it out, "Oh, let me use duck soup" or whatever the hell it is. And, you know, they're all over the internet like a rash, 'cause they figured out a technology tool to, you know, to blast their message at scale.
So people aren't necessarily interested in genuinely understanding the problems that people are facing within their business in order to have the experience, to understand the problem. The fundamental problem that's actually causing the issues and their mentality is I want to sell versus I want to help.
And I think that's where it starts. You know, servant leaders are out there trying to help people, and putting other people first. You have to take care of yourself and, you know, I've owned the business for 30 years. I mean, you gotta have profit, you know, sometimes the best thing I can do as to servant leaders to tell somebody, "No, you can't afford me". Because you can't afford me. And I can't do the work for you the way it needs to be done. And so, you know, go somewhere else. I'm sorry, I'm too expensive, but it is what it is. 'Cause I know I add value and I'm not gonna apologize for it. And I have to do that 'cause I'm thinking I'm being providing service to my employees because if I put unrealistic expectations or a lie to people, because I'm just trying to sell them rather than really genuinely help them, then the whole thing's gonna fall apart.
And you know, it's just, you get into this endless cycle of chasing clients and I've seen people go through that stuff. So for me, I think it fundamentally, the word is helping other, or the phrase is "How are you helping others?" You know, it doesn't mean sometimes that it's all about I'm gonna help you at the expense of myself though?
And my company and my organization, the most important people that I have to help are my family and my employees. I'm gonna put them first. That's just the nature of it because I have to, 'cause if I was to take on a bunch of clients and sell them and just work my people to death, like some people get into the sweat shop mentality, right?
And just as much money as I could possibly make, grow my business and sell it off or whatever it is. Yeah, you might be successful from a balance sheet perspective, but I don't think you're gonna be successful on a human sheet balance sheet perspective. Right. And yeah, you know, I've been approached multiple times by people that wanna join forces, you know, multiple agencies and they wanna roll their agencies together and sell it off in a bigger multiple. and I've— you know, my common response is "Guys, I don't view my employees as assets to be sold off." I could be naive about that. And I know there are people that are gonna be, you know, financially probably more successful than I am, but I wouldn't, just 'cause I make some money and now all the people that I've spent all these years with and I care about and I believe in their value and I'm gonna let, 'em be bought up by some crappy rolled up agency that's just a confederation of consulting groups that are all out for themselves and have private equity. People that are just money, money, money, money, money, you know, hammering them all day long. That's not what's best for those people, and it's really not what's best for all the clients.
Atiba de Souza: It isn't.
Branden Lisi: Because they're gonna end up leaving and then the clients are, you know, there's gonna be somebody else there. And so you just end up creating what I call the hamster wheel of mediocrity and hamster wheel is fair.
Atiba de Souza: And we see that all the time.
Branden Lisi: You know, 'you're chasing bucks, and if you're smart about it, you could make a good living and you could make money doing this. I've been doing it for 30 years and, I have a great life, but I don't have to do it at the expense of
Atiba de Souza: Of anyone.
Branden Lisi: Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Well actually better said you're right. I don't have to do it at the expense of anyone, you know? And so I think fundamentally is a long explanation, right? A lot of words to say, essentially to me, servant leadership was about helping other people and genuinely trying to care, or actually trying to care, genuinely making the effort to learn and to understand and to care about the outcomes that you're trying to create. Do good work and, do good deeds. I don't really talk much about it
Atiba de Souza: That's awesome.
Branden Lisi: I'm not a book guy, but I did a book years ago. I never printed it. We just put it on Amazon, but it was the, you know, it was called the Community Leader's Handbook. And it was really just about trying to tie the 12 points scout law, boy scout law to servant leadership.
And some of it was honestly just my own personal reaction to some of the things that were wrapping on a political scale globally, where, we went, you know, there's like more and more, it's all about the person, the one person at the top. And it's not, it's about all of us down here to speak.
And I don't care whether you're running a boy scout group or a church group or a garden club or a football team or whatever, if you're not embodying those 12 points of the scout law, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, et cetera, then you know, what are you doing? It's just all about yourself.
And it didn't really resonate with me and that's not what I teach my kids. And so I did the book really as a reaction to that, 'cause I wanted to reinforce those principles to my children. 'Cause I'm trying to raise them— that's the number one goal in my life is to raise two kids that I have a great relationship with and who I can respect as men one day.
You respect their dad. Well, I should say number one thing is keep my wife happy.
Mama comes first. Yeah, exactly.
Atiba de Souza: Happy wife, happy life, brother.
Branden Lisi: A parent, that's a huge responsibility And that's the number one opportunity for servant leadership. Right. Be a good dad. Be a good mom.
Atiba de Souza: Yes, absolutely. And that is so, so, so very important. And I'm so glad we took the conversation in this direction. Because it does tie together the fact that, you know, what we do inside and outside of business is so important.
Branden Lisi: Yeah.
Atiba de Souza: Okay. And the values that we have inside and outside of business are so important as well.
Branden Lisi: They can't be separate in my mind. If they are, there's some broken in you. If you're living one life at home and another life at work, then, I've yet to meet that person that's fulfilled. You know, they're always in inner conflict. They're being asked to do or expected to do things that don't really jive with their values. And those people are, you know, pardon my French, they're just, my experience is they're generally miserable bastards.
Miserable to work for and to work with.
Atiba de Souza: And yeah, it looks good from the outside, but from the inside, it's awful. And like, you know, everyone around them feels the awfulness, even though sometimes it looks good to the outside world, like they're successful, but they really aren't. Because they're not living truly who they are.
So I'm a hundred percent with you.
Branden Lisi: They have the pretense of success, but not inner success or inner peace.
Atiba de Souza: Which is the key. Which is the real key. So, branden, I gotta ask you this for the audience, because I'm sure that there's some people who are listening to this. And one have, like me, learned a lot just about, we talked about hiring, finding the right people, the right types of people that you need.
Right? And building culture around them. And, then wrapped in which we talk a lot about here on the show as well, making sure that you have great values, and that you're sharing those values with your staff, which we talked about as well here. And so there, I'm sure, there's somebody listening who says, you know what?
I need a marketing agency like his, so do me a favor. Tell us a little bit about Object 9. Cause we've danced around Object 9 a little bit. Tell us a little bit about Object 9 and how people can reach you and your team at Object 9.
Branden Lisi: So over the 30 years, I've started their business in '92, really at the dawn of the internet. Right. And the digital.
Atiba de Souza: Mm-hmm literally.
Branden Lisi: So we've evolved with the industry over 30 years. So, in that timeframe developed a very solid background in consumer packaged goods, brand work, and whatnot. Realized that where we found a little bit more intellectually interesting, after we'd done a few hundred brands of wine, beer, and spirits, it was moving from high volume, low margin products, consumer packaged goods to a high margin, lower volume, manufactured products, professional service firm, franchise, those kinds of things.
We tend to work with clients that have some business to business niche. They're really good at making their widgets or delivering their services, but they struggle with understanding how to put together an effective strategy and grow their business, build a predictable sales pipeline using digital media.
So, I would say if you're a business owner out there and you just haven't figured out how to unlock the code, unless you're in some kind of very specific niche and there are a few of them where it's still gonna be about sales, sales, sales. I would say over 90% of the clients that we worked with in the last decade have seen substantial growth in their sales pipeline and the results coming out of that pipeline.
Generally, for every dollar they put in, they see $3 to $4 back. So, those are the kinds of clients that I think make the most sense for Object 9.
Business, business manufacturers, et cetera, et cetera. If they wanna get in touch with me, a Branden Lisi, last name L I S I, I'm on LinkedIn. You can get to me through that.
You can reach out to Object9.com. That's Object the number 9.com. And there's a form you could fill out there. And, I think all my contact information is out there on LinkedIn, and that's probably the best way to start a conversation with me. We have a lot of content that's out there on LinkedIn and a few other places where you can also fill out the information.
You can get some white papers and whatnot, but, that's usually the best way to get me go to Object9.com and say, "Hey, you know, I need some help with marketing. I need somebody to help me figure this out." And usually what we do is we start with a free assessment, just kind of, okay, let's see what you've got.
Let's look at your ecosystem, do a basic analysis depending on your industry, kind of who your top competitors are, give you a little insight into what your competitors are spending and what you could be spending to track the pipeline. And then we execute.
Atiba de Souza: Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Perfect. Perfect. Well, Branden, I gotta thank you for being here.
Branden Lisi: Thank you for having me on.
Atiba de Souza: It was— oh, my pleasure, and I think sitting here now, after hearing some of what we've talked about, it's no secret to me why Object 9 has been around as long as it has, and been as successful as it has, because with a great leader like you, and your partner at the helm, that's the reason, someone who actually cares about their staff.
And that's the key that we gotta walk away with here, guys. You've gotta care about your staff. You've gotta make sure that you're hiring great people, but then really, really, truly care and serve them. Put them first. Put them first. Help them succeed and you'll succeed. Branden, it's been a pleasure.
Thanks my friend.
Branden Lisi: Likewise, Atiba. Thank you.
Atiba de Souza: Bye everyone.